I'vew set up a poll where you can say what you consider a fair rate to be... or say what you consider to be a fair rate and then let us all know why you think it is fair.
OK, here goes...
(mostly, but not only, for native English speakers, teaching adults)
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john |
What is a fair rate? |
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This is a question that has appeared here many a time, so I think it's high time that we gave all the visitors and members here a chance to say what they think a "fair" rate is.
I'vew set up a poll where you can say what you consider a fair rate to be... or say what you consider to be a fair rate and then let us all know why you think it is fair. OK, here goes... |
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Unregistered(d) |
Fair rate for what? | ||
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Is that a fair rate from a language school or a fair rate from a direct employer?
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john |
Re: Fair rate for what? | ||
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Hi Andrea
Well, at those rates I hope it is clear we are talking about language schools here. Still, a "fair rate" shouldn't really depend on who you work for, but rather on how much you think you're worth and be paid for teaching English. |
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john |
Comments about fair rates... | ||
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Please post any comments you have on "fair rates" on the the thread that Lynne started, "Start charging a fair rate".
Thanks. |
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Lynne Hand |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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Oh thanks John. Now would you like to come and defend what I'm trying to say?
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john |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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Lynne has asked me to defend her comments here...
I think most of us would agree that if you work, you ought to earn more than you would if you just stayed in bed and lived off social security benefits i.e. about 600 + rent. I don't know how much most of us pay for rent, but let's assume you're lucky and only have to pay 400 a month and work from there to find out how much money you need to have to earn 1,000 net. How much do you guesstimate? Well, according to a pay and cost survey that we carried out amongst English and German teachers the answer is 35,000 gross a year. Don't believe me? I don't blame you, but I'm afraid that's the case... Most freelance teachers have expenses connected with their teaching of at least 20%. Health insurance, pension contributions, solidarity tax, income tax and nursing care insurance (and possibly church tax) will eat up just over 50% of what's left. So, 70% of what we earn disappears - leaving us with about 12,000 net. How much do you need to charge to earn 35,000 gross, or 12,000 net? About 30 an hour if you teach 30 hours a week. I'm afraid I've done my sums here... and, as a rule of thumb, freelance teachers who are paying all the contributions they are legally obliged to and have more or less the same percentage of expenses as their colleagues do, are earning approx. 70% less net than they charge gross. OK, so what is a fair rate? I could stay in bed (not a bad idea in this weather), get my rent paid and 600 a month pocket money - or teach around 30 hours a week for 30. For those of you who have been doing your sums here... and will be writing to tell me that 30 x 4 weeks x 12 months means we will be making a lot more money than that, please let me remind you that most freelance teachers go through slack times during school holidays... and even need to take the occasional holiday themselves... and that has been included in this calculation. I would say that a "fair rate" for teaching 30 hours a week is around 40 an hour, but that's twice as much as most language schools pay... and 5 more than Lynne's plumber! 40 an hour is a "fair rate" and I don't mind if my head does get chopped off for saying that. |
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Lynne Hand |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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WTG! Now that's what I call sticking your head out.
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john |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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My head still hasn't been lopped off, but... I think I should add that I employ freelance teachers for around 30.
Less than a fair rate, I'm ashamed to say |
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Lynne Hand |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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Oh - don't get me started on the companies.
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diana |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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John's figures are pretty much on target (no pun intended) in my experience. He pays his trainers a fair rate, based on what the companies are paying his company but not very many do.
In another post by raDAr in a different thread s/he maintains that some schools simply can't afford to pay more. I know that's true but I've worked for some schools in the past where I knew it not to be true at all. In one case, I happened to see invoices on the secretary's desk for classes I was teaching and the rate they charged the company (per student) was in excess of five times the amount I was receiving. They charged the company per student and paid me per hour - 20DM/per hour at the time. Never was it reflected in the teacher's pay that we could raise our rates if courses were packed to the rafters but this particular school did charge per student and did pack the classes too full. In other cases, students would tell me what the company was paying and nothing close to it was certainly ever reflected in my wage packet! That's the reason I stopped working for schools, by and large. I did some work for a school last summer for a low wage, even low for NRW, but as I was only filling in a few hours for other teachers and had nothing much going for the summer (slow times in summer!) I took the work. I've read posts by people here who typically sign on, read the posts and then write something like 1) "It isn't that bad, why don't you all stop whingeing!" or, 2) "If you don't like the pay, and you knew what it was going in, get another job!" I don't think that debate about pay rates or saying what's happened to you has anything to do with complaining, although grousing is warranted considering what others make. It's fair to say that some people who read these posts might decide they really couldn't live on the going wage even if they might "love to go to Germany." It's also likely that one or two schools might read these posts and discover one possible reason why they simply can't get teachers or can't get quality teachers or can't get teachers to stay. That's education, not complaining. (imo) I voted for 31-35 taking into account the economic situation in Germany and not because I think that's all our work is worth. |
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john |
Re: Comments about fair rates... | ||
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26 people have responded so far... so the results are not terribly representative, but they are certainly very interesting.
Keep on voting! |
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Unregistered(d) |
rates | ||
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It seems to me that it is difficult to generate 30 outside Munich. In many places 20 is what the market yields. Yet I fully subscribe to the observations made here. When you do it legally, you lose about 60 to 70 %.
If one managed to generate 30 lessons per week @ 20 each, that would amount to 2,400 gross/mth. And 30 lessons is a lot when you have to travel from one place to another all the time (as in-company trainers do). So that is even a lucky assumption. Being left with 1,000 after deductions is ridiculous. I personally know of only one case where someone was able to get more than 30 - and that was because she sucked the school's owner off (not really an option). And what about health insurance? Those who get insured in Germany may pay 500 a month (standard rate in state insurance). I'd like to know how to procure affordable health insurance at 100 to 200 . ANY COMMENTS ? |
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Lynne Hand |
Re: rates | ||
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That's my whole point.
I would love to call a nationwide strike. Surely we wouldn't be any worse off than we are (and I know I am one of the fortunate ones I can afford to tell people to stuff off). If the poor opressed civil servants can do it (strike that is) why can't we? Vive la revolution! Vive Che John! Maybe we ought to wear Fair Trade T-shirts. Hey it worked for coffee! PS - regarding your acquaintance - Bless! Tell her to name and shame. I hate exploitation (unless she enjoyed the experience that is), in which case maybe she's in the wrong profession. OMG I hope none of my students read this - they'll be asking me to explain. |
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kahaokamoku |
fair??? not an expert | ||
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Fair is 40 euros per hour/ 20 hours a week / 9 months a year. That's still cheap, and not very good. My wife works for the city as a secretary, (not full time) and she makes way more money than that. Not even intensive german teachers work a whole day. They get headaches hearing our "german garbage". They have it good. We have to try to speak german. Most of the students do not speak english. Unfortunately, many of the german teachers in the intensive schools are not doing much better than the english teachers.
I think an overall concept for change would be to approach ALL private language school teachers and joined together in tackling the problem of low wages and lack of benefits. The schools could be apart of this as well. A friend of mine sells programs for Automation. He is starting to break into the european market. He told me a lot of companies get subsidiaries from the government to keep their software upgraded. He targets that money in the states. With the need for english courses, would it be possible to fund more money from the state and federal resources to companies that seek to improve their employees' edge. The real world . . . under 20 euros per hour / hopefully 20 hours a week (if you are lucky, you get 10 hours a week) You mostly work when you are needed. You could get more hours if you hit it off with a specific company. 90% chance, you will have to provide your own transportation to two different places as far as the east from the west. CompanIes, I hear, request to also change the teachers to avoid stagnation. I have not taught english, but this is what I hear from friends who are teaching. This is my fourth time around speaking with a language school about employment. I am seeing the need for englsih is rising again. I believe it is because there are less english speaking people since the draw down of the american military, the lack of work for english speakers (they are leaving.), the rising cost of living, low wages, no benefits and just plain lack of any work (to include meanigful work). I have seen more and more ads for english in my community. I can't speak for Munich. I presume there are more english speaking people in Munich. I am thinking of taking a teaching job. Right now, it looks like 17 euros an hour. Possibly, some gas money. I am thinking of using "teaching english" as a step towards networking and building something else. Worse comes to worse . . . I'll end up on the "baustelle" again as a landscaper. Do you know what a company charges at a cheap rate where I am for a "landscape worker". This could be just digging weeds . . . over 40 euros an hour . . . That's a few years ago. I'm not sure what they are charging now. That's not a "Meister". I can imagine what landscapers cost in Munich. As a worker, you are lucky if you get 12,50 an hour. Double that . . . that is what it cost the employer to keep you. Why 40 euros an hour is fair . . . A Family of 4 with two cars . . . Let's say you want to buy a house and build a life here . . . assume around 1250 Euros a month outside of Munich for a 250.000 euro house (you might do better. Interest rates are down even more.) . . . divide that by 1250 by 28% . . . that's a round number you need to survive each month. If you are both working to try and make that kind of money in germany, you NEED two cars. Most likely, your beautiful home is well outside the street car lanes, railroad tracks and normal bus lines. |
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john |
Re: fair??? not an expert | ||
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Wonderful, Kahaokamoku! (Hope I spelt that correctly).
Thanks for this and welcome up here! You seem to be one of the few who thinks that 40 an hour is fair. Good on you! I don't know about having two cars though... one's enough for me and my wife, even if we do have to make some compromises, but there again we haven't got small kids that need driving here, there and everywhere. |
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Unregistered(d) |
fair | ||
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40 is cool but unrealistic
heres the justice: self-employed car mechanic charges 45 blue collars in general 40-60 damn prob is schools r like brokers they suck up a huge part like a commission but do nothing but conveyance and administration USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA |
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Unregistered(d) |
Fair? | ||
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I'm new up here, but have been following the discussion here a while.
USAs comments on how much other people in Germany earn are interesting. I agree with him 40 Euros would be really cool, but unrealistic. Most of the schools in my area pay between 15 and 20 Euros and I reckon that's ok. Here's some hourly rates that other professions earn in Germany Cleaners 8.00 Euros Hairdresser 10.00 Euros Painter 10.50 Euros Waiter 11.00 an hour Shop assistant 12.00 Euros Policeman 13.00 Euros Window cleaner 13.30 Eurios Cook 14.00Euros Car mechanics 14.00 Euros Just do a search with google and you'll see that ESL teachers don't earn that badly. Hey USA I'm from Canada... CAN U CAN-CAN? |
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john |
Re: Fair? | ||
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Hello FR76
Welcome! Are you/we talking about net or gross hourly rates here? I just wish I could find a car mechanic to service my car for 14.00 an hour or a decorator who'd be willing to paint my flat at 10.50 an hour! USA's rates are more or less what I think I'd have to pay down here in Barbaria. A haircut costs me about 30 and I'm in and out of the hairdresser's in about 20 minutes! |
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Unregistered(d) |
lol | ||
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GOD BLESS AMERICA
_____________________________________________ i think that guy doesnt pay tax and health and pension contributions otherwise he aint talk like that 15 euros is a shit rate blue collars earn triple 250 is a very good rate but for that u must be a hooker or auditor (or callboy) _____________________________________________ USA Edited to get rid of far too many USAs! |
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john |
Re: lol | ||
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USA, you are more than welcome up here as long as you a) have something sensible or interesting to say, and b) aren't going to drive us all nutty by posting USA 1,001 times at the end of your messages.
One or two USAs is OK, but would you want to read God bless the Queen, Allah, Buddha, or my teddy bear 1,001 times every time I wrote a message here? No, of course you wouldn't! So do you think you could save us all from this sudden urge of yours? Thanks. PS. If you aren't prepared to be reasonable/sensible, it's your problem. Your messages will simply be deleted. Hope you've got the message. |
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raDAr |
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40 Euros from a language school just aint gonna happen, so there's no point heading in this direction.
What should be happening however is the weeding out of poor standard schools offering jobs to poor standard teachers getting 10 Euros an hour on freelance contracts, and slowly getting more schools to pay 20 Euros or more per hour. This is attainable and realistic. Rome wasn't built in a day. And if I may, can I please say GOD SAVE THE QUEEN! Thanks! |
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