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wrong use of some in questions?

Author	Comment
jonnybravado	wrong use of some in questions?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 16 (Tue, Jul 5, 2005 19:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None hi folks, under the impression that 'any' is always ok to use in a question, whereas some is only sometimes applicable. can't put my finger on why though exactly or think of many examples of bad use of 'some' rather than 'any' in a question. anyone got any examples? trying to explain it to an int/upp int class. cheers! jb
raDAr	!	#1	[-]
Posts: 95 (Fri, Jul 8, 2005 21:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Quite easy. Any should be used in questions eg. Do you have any brothers or sisters? Is there any beer left in the fridge? BUT If the question is an offer you should use some. eg. Would you like some biscuits? Would you like to have some help with that project? ANY in these examples is wrong. You can also use some when you would be surprised if the other person answered with a "no". eg. Can I have some water? Murphy's English Grammar in Use is good on this point, also for Upper Ints.
declineandfall	Re: !	#2	[-]
Posts: 216 (Sat, Jul 9, 2005 00:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not quite so easy, I think, raDAr. *Quote:* Any should be used in questions Could I have some time to think about that? Did you remember to buy some beer? Why do some people say English grammar is difficult? Do you like being an only child, or would you like some brothers and sisters? You look sad. Have you had some bad news? *Quote:* If the question is an offer you should use some. Do you need any help? Would you like any of my staff to work on this with you? *Quote:* You can also use some when you would be surprised if the other person answered with a "no". (Does that cover the differences here?) - Did you buy some beer? Did you buy any beer? Didn't you buy some beer? Didn't you buy any beer? I think the grammar books oversimplify, and get away with it by cherry picking the examples for the exercises. To sort "some" and "any" properly, you need to distinguish when: 1) they have a purely gramatical use, as a species of indefinite article for plurals and uncountables (in which case the rule of using "any" in questions and negatives holds (ish)), and 2) when they are content words, each with a range of meanings, which can be used with singular countables as well as plurals and uncountables. Grammar books tend to choose the examples that avoid the "ishes" in (1): asking for some/any as direct objects in direct questions only, and filtering out any conflicts with content-word meanings. Then there's a tendency to look away from the various content meanings of "some" or "any" ("not all", "approximately", "a remarkable", "even the slightest", "unlimited choice", "not even one" etc. etc.) and claim that the usage rules operate at a level of illocution, or sentence meaning ("it's an offer", "it expects yes"...). I don't think you'll get anywhere like this, cos when they have content rather than grammatical use, "some" and "any" work at a noun phrase level, not a sentence function level.
Unregistered(d)	Let's not get too pedantic	#3	[-]
Posts: 0 (Mon, Jul 11, 2005 13:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear Declineandfall, We could throw out all our grammar rules, if we're worried about exceptions. General rules, although far from perfect, are a wonderful aid to adult students of English. These are the 5 rules I use (and as you'll see, one of them applies to most of your tricky examples): Rule #1: "some" is used in positive statements, while "any" is used in questions and negatives. This is the general rule. Rules #2-5 are the exceptions to this rule. Rule #2: "some" is used in questions when the noun following "some" is being offered or requested. Rule #3: "some" is used in questions when the speaker expects the answer to be "yes." Rule #4: "any" is used in positive statements after "if". This is clearly the least stable of these rules, as it has many exceptions. Rule #5: "any" is used in positive statements to express "any at all," or "it doesn't matter which, where, who, when, etc." Although some of your sentences are truly difficult to place under the tent of these rules, others are easily explained: Do you need any help? (this is a question, not an offer--compare to: Would you like some help?) Would you like any of my staff to work on this with you? (this falls under Rule #5--any staff member at all) Did you buy some beer?--Rule#3 Did you buy any beer?--Rule #1 Didn't you buy some beer?--I, frankly, can't imagine ever saying this. Can you give me a context? I would leave the article out completely: Didn't you buy beer? Didn't you buy any beer?--Rule #1 I recently did a unit on some vs. any with my students. I admit that it was not easy and the students really had to work hard. But it is possible to give them a good sense of some and any with lots of practice. Using these words improperly is the kind of mistake that can lead to misunderstanding, so we have to tackle it somehow. Better imperfect rules than none at all.
declineandfall	Re: Let's not get too pedantic	#4	[-]
Posts: 216 (Mon, Jul 11, 2005 21:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree that grammar rules are a wonderful aid. But they have to be proper rules, and they have to be helpful. I think that's gone wrong with somanany. Examples of proper grammar rules: 1. Every singular countable noun that's not a name must have an article or determiner. 2. You can't use present perfect with an adverbial of finished time. A proper grammar rule with exceptions: 3. You can't use "will" or "would" verb forms in an if/when/unless etc. clause unless the teacher says you can. And then there are usage descriptions which might as well be grammar rules because they're about grammarry things like tenses: 4. Use the present perfect continuous when blah blah... (and I think we [teachers] cause alot of misery by not distinguishing the two types of "rule"). Now by the time you're doing rules like 4, you're getting into a lot of social anthropology and natural history: talking about how people live, not how sentences are constructed. And it's tempting to keep on doing this by constructing grammar-type rules for what are really lexical items: 5. Use "pissing down" in British English when it is raining outside and your grandmother isn't listening to you. The exceptions to this rule are as follows... Cases like 5 are rare, I admit, but I think this is what has happened with "some" and "any". It looks like you can treat them as grammar elements, and you can, for a while. But they also have a set of content meanings, and there the rules start being misleading. The dividing line is roughly between the strong and weak pronunciations of "some". It's no disgrace for a respectable language to use a word sometimes as an article and sometimes as a content word. German makes do with "ein" and its inflections where we have "a" and "one". The difference between "Germany is a country (in the middle of Europe)" and, "Germany is one country (since reunification)" have to be shown in German by stress or context. Meanwhile the some/any uses are not conflated in German (There's either no indefinite article - "Ich hole Karten/Geld..." or a set of clear content words like "manche", "irgendein", "jeder", "einige" etc.). Here's what I think the situation is with someanany: A. ARTICLE USE - only with plurals and uncountables - weak pronunciation Typically you get "some" with positive sentences, and "any" with negatives and interrogatives. I suspect this is not, though, a sentence-level rule. More likely, they have a hint of extistential qualifier: we use "some" for things we know or assert to exist or be present, and "any" if existence or presence is in doubt or denied. Which means you TEND to get "some" in positive sentences ("I've got a..."), offers ("Dya wannsem..?") and questions expecting "yes" (Any chance of some...?). But this is cos the speaker in this sort of case usually reckons that the plural or uncountable thingies in question exist or are present, not cos the sentence structure demands it. (Compare "a" and "the" with singular countables. You decide between them at noun phrase, not sentence, level. And you look at issues of their existential status from the speaker's perspective: is there only one of them? does the hearer know which one?). If you try to resolve the some/any choice at sentence level, you end up coming out with things like: *Quote:* "any" is used in positive statements after "if". This is clearly the least stable of these rules, as it has many exceptions or: *Quote:* Do you need any help? (this is a question, not an offer--compare to: Would you like some help?) (I think that this exchange: *Quote:* - Do you need any help with that? - Oh, yes please. - Well, I hope you find some ....would and should lead to a slap in the mouth in any civilised society. 'Course it's an offer.) B. CONTENT-WORD USE - with singluar, plural or uncountable nouns - strong pronunciation Meanings like "any at all," or "it doesn't matter which, where, who, when, etc.", "not all", "approximately", "a remarkable", "even the slightest", "unlimited choice", "not even one". No association with positive, negative or interrogative sentence structure. No more than "pissing down" correlates grammatically with these structures. It depends entirely on what you want you're talking about. At noun phrase level. So you don't need rules like: *Quote:* "'any' is used in positive statements to express 'any at all'" (or, for that matter, '"some' is used in negatives and questions to mean 'not all'") because there's no connection between these issues.
Unregistered(d)	Some and any	#5	[-]
Posts: 0 (Fri, Jul 29, 2005 07:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Personally I think grammar should reflect how language is used, and not dictate rigidly its usage. Students should be gently guided to recognise natural use of points such as some and any. Native speakers switch between the two and wouldn't care a fig about what the "rules"say!!
YorickJenkins		#6	[-]
Posts: 127 (Thu, Oct 2, 2008 19:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Unregistered" is presumably joking if he/she is suggesting that native speakers wouldn't care a fig whether they used "some" or "any"-a brief reflection on how the two words are used shows that the two words are used differently and often there is a choice in English between "some" and "any" , both words being grammatically correct but having different meanings. There is more logic to languages than many of those who are in favour of or against strict adherence rules give them credit for. "Some" refers to a certain quantity, which may or may not be known but which is believed to be measured and known. "Any" refers to a quantity where the quantity is irrelvant and is not measured. For German learners it is useful to know that the German word "überhaupt" usually indicates the use of "any" instead of "some" where there is a choice in English. All the differences and "rules" about the use of "some" and "any" stem from the difference in meaning. Because "any" refers to an unspecified amount from zero to infinitum it can be used with negations of quantity (not, never) "Some" refers to a measured quantity, perhaps not known exactly but known to be limited. For this reason "some" and any word denying quantity such as "not"-don't match. "Any" refers to an unlimied quantity, so in most, but by no means all, positive sentences it makes little sense to use it. Sometimes neither word is necessary but this is especially true of "some" "Any" is usally used to stress a reduction or negation-eg I seldom have any time. The alternative is not "some" but no word-viz I seldom have time or I seldom have the time We often have a choice between "some" and "any" in English and according to the word which we choose we change the meaning Some examples: Do you speak any Russian?-do you speak Russian at all, in any way. I'm not interested in a specific quantity of knowledge of the Russian language Do you speak some Russian?-the implied question here is do you speak enough Russian for a specific purpose? You can find Altbier anywhere in Dusseldorf-it does not matter where you are in Dusseldorf, Altbier will not be far away You can find Altbier somewhere in Munich-there is a place (I may or may not rememember where) in Munich where you can get Altbier He has a house somewhere in Spain (a specific given place, even if I don't know where and I probably don't because if I did I would have probably said where exactly) He has a house anywhere in Spain-what can this sentence mean? If he has a house then I am specifiying a measured quantity, which is exactly what any does not do. This sentence is not so much "breaking a rule", it just makes no obvious sense. You can go and live somewhere in Spain-pick out a place for yourself in Spain You can go and live anywhere in Spain-the meaning is not very different from the sentence with some in this case, but any does stress that I don't care where, that I am setting no limits to the possibilities of where in Spain you can go-maybe several places (somewhere only allows for one place) Would you like any tea?-I am not interested in measured quantites, I just want to know if tea is on your "want" list Would you like some tea?-would you like the specific measured quantity I am able to offer you? Will someone be there?-implied is, to help me to get the house ready, or to turn the heating on-a person for a secific reason Will anyone be there-I am not interested in the reason or numbers of possible persons, I just want to know will the house be occupied or not? The following example shows a big difference and most learners find it funny: Husband comes home from a party. The typical question from his wife would be: Did you meet anyone interesting at the party? 1 to 1000 people The question is simply interesting person or people yes or no? If he has lipstick on his shirt collar, she might be tempted to ask instead Did you meet someone interesting at the party?-was there a certain person there who interested you and whose lipstick is on your shirt collar? It is very misleading of German schools to cite rules about "some" and "any" which are not really rules at all, at least not in the sense of a proscriptive grammatical rule, such as the use of the s in the third person singular in English. The "s" indicates the third person singular and is based on proscription, not logic, it is hardly necessary in English because in contrast to many languages (Italian or Hungarian for example) the pronoun/noun is nearly always used in standard sentences. There is a fine difference in meaning between "some" and "any" and the so-called rules point to this difference. The "rules" apply as a result of the logic of the distinction in meaning.

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